tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post8695644983359041599..comments2024-03-06T03:15:58.539-05:00Comments on <b>THE NEW REFORM CLUB</b>: Thompson in the RaceHunter Bakerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14961831404331998743noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-9289165687661200492007-06-04T21:23:00.000-04:002007-06-04T21:23:00.000-04:00Indeed. I'm pretty easy---if I can get someone to...Indeed. I'm pretty easy---if I can get someone to agree we're more than the sum of our atoms, it's a start. Already to Square Two. ;-)<BR/><BR/>Since Hitchens does not agree, he's useful only at Square One, where I adore him. (I even liked him before he became a warmonger.)<BR/><BR/>And of course, fine mind that he is, he agrees with this correspondent in that <I>a definition is something short of an understanding</I>.<BR/><BR/>(And BTW, the careful reader caught Kathy Hutchins' slipping in Woodrow Wilson, as in "making the world safe for democracy." The current Iraq adventure is likewise progressive, not conservative. I was disappointed our most recent gadfly didn't light on that.)Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-67583458146873155512007-06-04T21:09:00.000-04:002007-06-04T21:09:00.000-04:00"Many later thinkers have defined it in discrepant...<I>"Many later thinkers have defined it in discrepant ways, but a definition is something short of an understanding."<BR/><BR/>- Christopher Hitchens*</I><BR/><BR/>Is anyone other than me mystic-fied by the fact that a naturalist is demanding nothing less than certainty from supernaturalists?<BR/><BR/>[FWIW, Euthyphro does little for me. So-so-crates gets away with way too much, and is only useful in highlighting the necessity of an infinite Oneness in order to provide a foundation for meaning.]<BR/><BR/>* an except from Christopher Hitchens during a recent <A HREF="http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/juneweb-only/122-52.0.html" REL="nofollow">clock-cleaning</A> by Doug Wilson on whether or not Christianity is Good.Matt Huismanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09972662349345412127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-35048925229805037142007-06-04T15:17:00.000-04:002007-06-04T15:17:00.000-04:00Of course, the height of Socrates' wisdom is "I on...Of course, the height of Socrates' wisdom is "I only know that I do not know." Certainty is not philosophy's end.<BR/><BR/>And Euthyphro doesn't apply---Zeus was not all-wise, neither was he all-good. The question is one of the good, not of piety.<BR/><BR/>Definitions are fine, I suppose, for those who need them. I understand most people fine even if I miss a word or two. For example, "social conservative" means something different to Tom Wolfe and Pat Robertson. I understand them both <I>as they understand themselves.</I> <BR/><BR/>You might have a point with Euthyphro with Robertson, tho, altho the pickins are not so easy in this forum.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-11310431692246873032007-06-03T16:19:00.000-04:002007-06-03T16:19:00.000-04:00The Euthyphro pretty clearly is not an attempt at ...The Euthyphro pretty clearly is not an attempt at defending the concept of piety but rather a demonstration that the belief in piety and the gods suffered from serious philosophical flaws.<BR/><BR/>You could defend anything that way, though, I suppose. As soon as you discover internal inconsistencies (such as those demonstrated in the Euthyphro), just lapse into saying "Well I guess it can't be defined then" rather than admitting there are serious problems.The Mystichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00813641115915460692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-59186123418948651452007-06-03T15:58:00.000-04:002007-06-03T15:58:00.000-04:00I agree TVD, and the "can" in my parenthetical is ...I agree TVD, and the "can" in my parenthetical is meant to be a "can't" (I couldn't figure out how to edit my comment), though I do think Plato still looks for the certainty.John H. Watsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02057669588188393564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-1818973352193837262007-06-03T15:35:00.000-04:002007-06-03T15:35:00.000-04:00Also - it probably won't do any good, but just so ...Also - it probably won't do any good, but just so you don't get away with it -<BR/><BR/>Just because some people can't define "pile" does not mean that there is no such thing as a definition. In fact, if you think there's no possible way to define anything, as you appear to be alleging, the direct result of that is that no one can ever understand one another because no one will know what any of the words mean, since they will be definitionless - as you think there's no way to make a definition.<BR/><BR/>If that's so, why talk at all?The Mystichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00813641115915460692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-14380325507321510692007-06-03T14:32:00.000-04:002007-06-03T14:32:00.000-04:00Dr. Watson, of course Plato is illustrating to the...Dr. Watson, of course Plato is illustrating to the sophists the impossibility of making an equation of the human experience. It's more like a painting, with all its imprecision.<BR/><BR/>The current tension between the social sciences and philosophy (the seeking of <I> good</I> as Mr. D'Virgilio puts it, and indeed answering the first philsophical question, what is good?) was anticipated by the ancients.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-30797722451393851192007-06-03T14:24:00.000-04:002007-06-03T14:24:00.000-04:00By the way - I'm presuming, then, that this is the...By the way - I'm presuming, then, that this is the specific definition for this reform club:<BR/><BR/>"A social conservative in our political parlance is one who is pro-life, pro-traditional marriage and is either Christian himself or has a great respect for Christianity."The Mystichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00813641115915460692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-55428310473089156492007-06-03T14:20:00.000-04:002007-06-03T14:20:00.000-04:00Thank you - if everyone agrees with that definitio...Thank you - if everyone agrees with that definition, that was all I wanted. That definition is clear and specific - a good definition by any standards. I don't see what was so hard about that.The Mystichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00813641115915460692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-91232483892393558272007-06-03T10:59:00.000-04:002007-06-03T10:59:00.000-04:00The search for the perfect definition is one that ...The search for the perfect definition is one that has a very healthy pedigree. Plato always wanted a definition that worked for every time and instance. See how he pushes for such a definition for piety in the Euthyphro (or does he? perhaps he's showing how some things can be so defined). <BR/><BR/>So, ironically, the Western "tradition" affords the Mystic with about as big a name as you can get for his pursuit of a perfect definition of "social conservative." <BR/><BR/>But there were footnotes to Plato, and Aristotle provided one in noting that you can't exact more precision than the subject allows. Plato's favorite subject was geometry, Aristotle's was biology. Biology is messier, not as exact. Aristotle's quip comes in the Nicomachean ethics. Ethics can be messy. Social conservatism, whatever else it is about, is about ethics and morality.<BR/><BR/>Social conservatism will not yield to a perfect definition. It's not as bad as Potter Stewart's obscenity, which he couldn't define but knew when he saw it, but it doesn't give a perfect geometric definition either.<BR/><BR/>So we can ask a question from a more recent philosopher of language and ask how the term is used. Here we get somewhere. As has been said already more or less, a social conservative in our political parlance is one who is pro-life, pro-traditional marriage and is either religious himself or has a great respect for religion. <BR/><BR/>That's it. That's the working definition.<BR/><BR/>Now an even better question remains about the propriety of approaching a group of basketball players having a game in the park and repeatedly asking them why they aren't playing Parcheesi. That's not unlike approaching a thread about Fred Thompson and insisting repeatedly on changing the subject.John H. Watsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02057669588188393564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-73019959250028243672007-06-03T10:29:00.000-04:002007-06-03T10:29:00.000-04:00I've been away awhile, but I thought Kathy provide...I've been away awhile, but I thought Kathy provided a pretty solid riff on how social conservatism operates - which you then butchered with notions of "fear" and "stability". Conservatism does not value stability for its own sake; rather, it desires what is <I>good</I> (as any -ism should). <BR/><BR/>Conservative economic principles bear this out, where stability takes a definite back seat to the good (read: <I>growth</I>) and are willing to take an amazingly dynamic road to get there.<BR/><BR/>The point you seem to continually miss - which Kathy implied but did not explicity state - is that conservatism (at least here in America) starts from a (Western/Judeo-Christian) foundation that it believes is <I>good</I>. And so tinkering should be done judiciously.Matt Huismanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09972662349345412127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-66564835017542122722007-06-03T00:27:00.000-04:002007-06-03T00:27:00.000-04:00Are you kidding? How many grains make a pile? If y...Are you kidding? How many grains make a pile? If you read that splendid muddle by Rorty, the Great Minds can't even define what a definition is.<BR/><BR/>Get off it, and say what you're thinking. If you screw up the words a little bit, I'll keep the sophists off your back. Promise. I invited you here, so it's a sacred honor thing.<BR/><BR/>I dig dissent. I encourage it. I live for it. I protect it. Go for it, but keep in mind George Bernard Shaw was pretty damn good. Bring your "A" game.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-26821912989666669542007-06-02T20:57:00.000-04:002007-06-02T20:57:00.000-04:00Soo..requesting a definition "is an invitation to ...Soo..requesting a definition "is an invitation to sophistry, not philosophy".<BR/><BR/>Probably the weirdest claim I've ever heard.<BR/><BR/><BR/>This is so strange - if everyone apparently knows what social conservativism is (aside from me), why is it so difficult to give a definition? How could you possibly think that definitions are not a part of philosophy? If you aren't clear about what you're saying, how could anyone ever really agree or disagree? That doesn't make any sense.<BR/><BR/>Also - why do you presume I know what it means? I wouldn't have asked if I knew what it meant. <BR/><BR/>The only possible way I can see that you think requesting a definition is "bait" and a "gambit" is if you think nothing can be defined - which means, I suppose, that you think no one can ever really understand one another, which would be a strange opinion to have. Why communicate if it's pointless?<BR/><BR/><BR/>Seriously, no one can give a definition? That doesn't bother anyone that there appears to be a total inability to define the term you use to describe yourself (and yourselves, I presume)?<BR/><BR/>That's pretty weird.<BR/><BR/>I want to know what you mean, and I have no idea why you think I would know what you mean if you don't even appear to know what you mean.The Mystichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00813641115915460692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-26327253160392107032007-06-02T19:21:00.000-04:002007-06-02T19:21:00.000-04:00What can I say? I'm not very into definitions---t...What can I say? I'm not very into definitions---they depend on the skill of the definer, and can rise and fall on his skill and not anything resembling truth or understanding.<BR/><BR/>It's been my experience on the internet that as soon as definitions are insisted upon (and god forbid somebody starts cutting and pasting the dictionary), useful discussion is at an end. It is an invitation to sophistry, not philosophy.<BR/><BR/> <A HREF="http://www.lrb.co.uk/v27/n02/print/rort01_.html" REL="nofollow">How many grains make a heap?</A><BR/><BR/>Perhaps you'll see why those here in attendance haven't risen to the bait. They know exactly what your asking, and have declined the gambit. Mr D'Virgilio already answered you:<BR/><BR/><I>Going through all this stuff about what a social conservative is doesn't get us anywhere, because we all know what a social conservative is.</I><BR/><BR/>He knows you know the answer to your own question, and after the initial courtesy of reply, has declined to play out this script any further.<BR/><BR/>We all know what someone means when they call themselves "progressive," or a "free-thinker," haha. <BR/><BR/>We have touched on a few worthwhile things such as tradition isn't respected because it's tradition, but because it's been road-tested. There is much to discuss, like whether government should serve society or the other way around---which is more "organic"?<BR/><BR/>Is "organic" good? Is ideology superior? Inferior? What are rights? Are they organic or just a convention of social contract? Is society purely conventional or does it have its roots in man's nature?<BR/><BR/>The history of political philosophy cannot be distilled to a single post in a comments section. I wish it could.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-53442645600158338542007-06-02T17:55:00.000-04:002007-06-02T17:55:00.000-04:00All I'm looking for is a definition. You quoted m...All I'm looking for is a definition. You quoted my definition, and then..talked about specific issues. I'm not really looking to debate specific issues, I'm just trying to figure out what the definition of "social conservativism" is so I can figure out where you're coming from.<BR/><BR/>I'm not talking about gay marriage or whether or not a fetus is a person - I don't really even know why you brought either up. <BR/><BR/>I'm not trying to debate specific issues with you, but are you saying, then, that social conservativism means simply that you are prudent in choosing when to modify tradition?<BR/><BR/>It seems like you want to say liberals are not prudent in their decision making, and that is the difference between liberals and social conservatives. But then, why call yourself a social conservative if it only means that you are prudent?<BR/><BR/>I don't know what you're trying to say - could you be more clear? Was my definition correct or incorrect? All I want to know is what someone means when he or she claims to be a "social conservative", as you guys here at the reform club see it.The Mystichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00813641115915460692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-47317986004386173142007-06-02T15:57:00.000-04:002007-06-02T15:57:00.000-04:00MJ Watson, I would like to take up your idea. Ple...MJ Watson, I would like to take up your idea. Please do email me at tomlosangeles at yahoo dot com.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-42563106790057784032007-06-02T15:56:00.000-04:002007-06-02T15:56:00.000-04:00"Traditions are good in that they stabilize societ...<I>"Traditions are good in that they stabilize society, and therefore, if they are tinkered with, we risk destabilizing society. Should we decide to modify traditions, then, we should be sure that the modification will be worthwhile in that the destabilizing aspects will be outweighed by the freedoms that are introduced as a result of the modification."<BR/><BR/>Which, of course, is a completely uninteresting assertion that anyone would agree with.</I><BR/><BR/><BR/>You'd think, but that is not so in practice.<BR/><BR/>The Law of Unintended Consequences is always in play, which is why the burden of proof relies on the "reformers."<BR/><BR/>Prove to me gay marriage will hurt the American family, they say. In the meantime we'll use the power of the courts to alter society by fiat, in the name of "fairness."<BR/><BR/>Nuh-uh. <BR/><BR/>First you have to prove, or let's say persuade, a majority of folks that all sexualities are created equal. However, last time I checked, only one produces children, and the continuity of a society rests with the next generations, not the current one.<BR/><BR/>Prove to me that a fetus is a human being, they say. In the meantime, we'll use the power of the courts to declare that it is not.<BR/><BR/>Nuh-uh. Not taking that one lying down,<BR/><BR/>Good to see Mr. Smith. There is a certain tautology in saying traditions are good because they are old and they're what got us here from the primordial ooze. However, slavery is a fine example of how a blind defense of tradition doesn't pass the smell test.<BR/><BR/>Remember, Burke was a "progressive" in his way, too. It's often true, and a failing, that conservatism isn't progressive enough and is prone to a knee-jerk defense of the status quo. However, that's not at its philosophical root.<BR/><BR/>And it's often true that liberalism is the font of positive change, however, it's also the font of unintended consequences.<BR/><BR/>Prudence, which is a virtue after all, lies on the side of the conservatives, which is why I lean that way. Without prudence, all is lost.<BR/><BR/>Now, our system provides for federalism, which allows the individual states to experiment with social change without tossing the babies (literally, sometimes) out with the bathwater. This was the pre-Roe v. Wade condition until the Supreme Court short-circuited it with an ideological pronouncement, and destroyed the "organic" method of societal change.<BR/><BR/>There is much to be said here, as it's emblematic of the whole left/right devide, especially what we mean by freedom, liberty, and rights, which I've learned through discussions like these we share no common definitions, let alone understanding.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for a budding good exchange, all.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-22438839872159703652007-06-02T14:41:00.000-04:002007-06-02T14:41:00.000-04:00I have a feeling that when a definition is given, ...I have a feeling that when a definition is given, it will be something like this:<BR/> <BR/>"Traditions are good in that they stabilize society, and therefore, if they are tinkered with, we risk destabilizing society. Should we decide to modify traditions, then, we should be sure that the modification will be worthwhile in that the destabilizing aspects will be outweighed by the freedoms that are introduced as a result of the modification." <BR/> <BR/>Which, of course, is a completely uninteresting assertion that anyone would agree with. Obviously, when you're analyzing something for potential modification - anything, not just traditions - you're going to be sure that the benefits of the modification outweigh the risks. That's claim doesn't help to define wahat a social conservative is because it's a claim that both liberals and conservatives would agree with, since it breaks down to the basic formulation:<BR/><BR/>"If you are going to modify x, be sure that the modifications will provide benefits that outweigh the penalties."<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>Clearly, any rational person would agree with this.<BR/><BR/> <BR/><BR/>However, given that social conservatives seem so staunch about keeping and protecting traditions, I'm forced to believe that the true position is something like this: <BR/> <BR/>"The traditions that currently exist in society are very close to being perfected in that they have very few drawbacks to their implementation when it comes to sacrificing freedom for stability. The very, very few freedoms that are being unnecessarily restricted by the traditions do need to be addressed and fixed, but overall, the freedoms they restrict are necesary for the stability of society." <BR/> <BR/>I have a feeling that's what is really being said here. Since you support tradition so strongly, surely you believe something along these lines - namely, that traditions currently in place are very good ones that serve very good functions in that they stabilize society and the freedoms that are restricted are restricted because it is necessary to do so. It's not that the traditions must never be modified, but it is the case, seemingly, that you believe that the current traditions are in need of very little modification.<BR/><BR/>I'm not criticizing this view in this post - I just want to know what the view is. I think I've given it a fair portrayal.<BR/><BR/>Is that not correct?The Mystichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00813641115915460692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-35251329174049501502007-06-02T14:03:00.000-04:002007-06-02T14:03:00.000-04:00The Mystic directed me to this discussion...I'm no...The Mystic directed me to this discussion...I'm not getting into this, but I do just want to say:<BR/><BR/>I think you're wrong, Tom. The Mystic's paraphrases are clear and apparently offered in the spirit of honest inquiry. In fact, his formulations are clearer and more precise than any of the others offered here. Giving a clear formulation of conservatism is hard. The Mystic's just honestly acknowledging HOW hard, and trying to elicit some clarification.<BR/><BR/>Incidentally, the Mystic didn't ask me to write that. He just directed me to this discussion saying that I might find it interesting. I don't always agree with him, but I think he's right on target here.<BR/><BR/>I'll take a whack at my own formulation before I vanish:<BR/><BR/>Conservatives and liberals lie on a continuum. On one end of this continuum lies the claim that the fact that something is traditional is very, very important. On the other end lies the claim that such facts are not important at all. Conservatives lie farther toward the former end, whereas liberals lie farther toward the latter.<BR/><BR/>IMHO liberals tend to undervalue tradition just a bit, and conservatives radically over-value it...but then I'm mostly a liberal, so make of that what you will.<BR/><BR/>So far as I can tell, the fact that something is traditional is only very weak evidence in its favor. Slavery was traditional, as was the subjegation of women, monarchy, state-sponsored religion, etc., etc.. <BR/><BR/>All we find out when we find out that x is traditional is that it hasn't yet killed off its practitioners. And that ain't much.<BR/><BR/>Actually, FWIW, I'm not really sure that views about tradition really get to the heart of the liberalism/conservatism dispute...but I'm not sure what does.Winston Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08780746334199630779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-89161566566505903452007-06-02T13:03:00.000-04:002007-06-02T13:03:00.000-04:00I still don't know what a social conservative is. ...I still don't know what a social conservative is. Can anyone give a nice one-post definition?The Mystichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00813641115915460692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-42773271221582006912007-06-02T11:43:00.000-04:002007-06-02T11:43:00.000-04:00I didn't say this in my post, but when FT gets in ...I didn't say this in my post, but when FT gets in the race he's my guy. We all like Rudy because he doesn't take crap from liberals, as he proved in NYC, but I think FT doesn't suffer fools gladly either (witness his reply to Michael Moore re: Cuba). <BR/><BR/>Going through all this stuff about what a social conservative is doesn't get us anywhere, because we all know what a social conservative is. Rudy isn't, FT is. So the latter would get my vote before the former. If Rudy ends up winning the nomination, then he will get my vote and support for the reasons I state in my post. Go Fred!Mike D'Virgiliohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03150525537509460056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-5878394760149817662007-06-02T10:41:00.000-04:002007-06-02T10:41:00.000-04:00Any chance for a discussion on the actual content ...Any chance for a discussion on the actual content of the post?<BR/><BR/>I'd be interested in what the other Reform Clubbers think of FT.<BR/><BR/>(might be time for TVD to repost the original stuff about how the RC got started, Chesterton and all that. ).John H. Watsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02057669588188393564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-25470448901853768492007-06-02T02:26:00.000-04:002007-06-02T02:26:00.000-04:00Also, for your reference, Mike said:Which means th...Also, for your reference, Mike said:<BR/><BR/><I>Which means that most of the tradeoffs involved have already been worked out.</I><BR/><BR/>That's where the "outweighs their downsides" came from. He seems to be implying that.<BR/><BR/>I took Mike's quote:<BR/><BR/><I>"the traditions and institutions that arise organically in a society serve essential functions that are not always apparent on the surface, and that a society tinkers with at its peril"</I><BR/><BR/>combined with your<BR/><BR/><I>"Will society "crumble" if we tear out its foundations? Depends what you mean by "crumble." People killing each other in the streets, the family demolished and the children condemned to a near-inextricable cycle of ignorance and poverty?<BR/><BR/>Oh, wait, we're describing Washington D.C."</I><BR/><BR/>to mean that society will become unstable if traditions are removed. That does seem to be what you're indicating.<BR/><BR/>and finally, Mike's:<BR/><BR/><I>"that a society tinkers with at its peril"</I><BR/><BR/>Made me consider that he believes that if traditions are tinkered with, it will destabilize society. That seems like what he was saying.<BR/><BR/><BR/>I'm not trying to say I'm right, I just want a definition - that was all I asked for. No one's given one, so I've made various attempts to give one based on their claims - I'm not making up the definition, I'm using what has been said. If you've got one, by all means, let me know.The Mystichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00813641115915460692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-61930855683069013582007-06-02T02:15:00.000-04:002007-06-02T02:15:00.000-04:00Well damn, fine, you give me a clear definition, t...Well damn, fine, you give me a clear definition, then. I don't care who gives it, I was just asking what it meant.The Mystichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00813641115915460692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-35467677104334414752007-06-02T01:35:00.000-04:002007-06-02T01:35:00.000-04:00To discount what Scripture itself says is to disco...<I>To discount what Scripture itself says is to discount what Scripture itself says. Is that tautological enough for you?</I><BR/><BR/>Yes.<BR/><BR/><I>I'm not sure what a Catholic would say in this case, so tell me.</I><BR/><BR/>Oh, we were all one church until 1500 or so. We still are, by me, altho I dunno about the Mormons.<BR/><BR/><I>Is there some external source to Scripture that somehow "proves" it is the word of God?</I><BR/><BR/>Something about how biblical prophecies have been fulfilled. Unfortunately, they were either about Jesus or Israel. There was something about the city of Tyre being destroyed, but I think it just changed its name.<BR/><BR/><I>What is your point?</I><BR/><BR/>Just that those who don't believe in the Bible (and some downright hate it) aren't going to be swayed by its self proof. In fact, they go into an about-face.<BR/><BR/>But I see you were just clearing up a textual point, so I'm sorry for jumping in, although that clarification doesn't really further the cause.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.com