tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post113471339862830855..comments2024-03-06T03:15:58.539-05:00Comments on <b>THE NEW REFORM CLUB</b>: The ZebrasHunter Bakerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14961831404331998743noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-1135120020394517282005-12-20T18:07:00.000-05:002005-12-20T18:07:00.000-05:00As the sanctions grew less deadly, they became mor...As the sanctions grew less deadly, they became more ineffective. Perhaps you heard of the Oil-For-Food scandal (I think it made page A83 in the paper.)<BR/><BR/>The romantic myth of the sanctions will never fade, I think. The media does not want to look at their lethalness and corruption, as it reflects poorly on Clinton, for who 80-90% of them voted, and the Bushies can hardly admit that the US/UK killed tens of thousands of innocents with them.<BR/><BR/>An Islamic-minded government in Iraq is troublesome; however, consent of the governed is what we really mean by "democracy," and this will likely be a necessary step. The people will be accountable for the actions of their government, and we will be in a position to keep them on a short leash.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-1135047913007464712005-12-19T22:05:00.000-05:002005-12-19T22:05:00.000-05:00Ensure that they don't develop weapons of mass des...Ensure that they don't develop weapons of mass destruction, like Iran is about to do...Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-1134768354068593492005-12-16T16:25:00.000-05:002005-12-16T16:25:00.000-05:001) Tom, if I misinterpreted and therefore misrepre...1) Tom, if I misinterpreted and therefore misrepresented your views, I apologize. I guess I'm waiting for an actual example of people who "hamstring" for the purpose of scoring points that doesn't rely on gross misrepresentation of expressed views. I have yet to see anyone of any actual cultural or political significance say that the U.S. or the Bush Administration "deserves" to fail.<BR/><BR/>2) Keith:<BR/><BR/><I>A) There is every indication that our troops are quelling sectarian violence, and not much indication that a full on civil war will occur.</I><BR/> <BR/>Whuzzah? You are literally making this stuff up as you go.<BR/><BR/><I>More Iraqis are participating in the political process then taking up arms, against either us or other Iraqis.</I><BR/><BR/>This doesn't even remotely equate to a logical inference. In fact, it flies in the face of what Sunni leadership is on record as saying. It is entirely possible to do both, nor is it necessary for even a majority of Iraqis to take up arms for an increase in sectarian violence to ensue.<BR/><BR/><I>B) There is also every indication that a liberated Iraq, well on it's way to a democratic form of government, is serving as an inspiration to a great number of people in the Middle East. Especially those living under autocratic forms of government.</I><BR/><BR/>Again, making it up as you go along. There are no such indications, as was addressed earlier this week.<BR/><BR/><I>C) al Queda [sic] will always use whatever we are doing as an argument against us. If we leave, then we'll be seen as weak, a paper tiger who abandons their allies (just like Vietnam) If we leave, they will also claim it as a victory, and that will carry more sway with radical muslims then us leaving.</I><BR/><BR/>How many incorrect ways can you spell "al Qaeda?" Again, you're engaging in an emotional argument with no factual basis. To try and bring this back on-topic a little, this comment is a gross misrepresentation of what just about anyone on the Left has said. No one claims that al Qaeda will stop attacking us if we leave Iraq. However, roughly 90% of our opponents in Iraq are insurgents, not jihadists. Think IRA instead of al Qaeda. By a strategic withdrawal, we open one of two possibilities: Al Qaeda continues to focus on us, and we have more resources available to smoke them out; or they focus on securing a Caliphate, carrying their tactics over to the general Arab world and thus delegitimizing themselves in the eyes of the people and becoming marginalized and opposed. It's a win-win situation and one that doesn't require our presence in the Iraq. Imagine that.<BR/><BR/><I>D) You really think that they hate us because we're in the Middle East. Look around at all the other places radical Islam is sprouting up. The problem isn't us, it's them. They want to create the caliphate, regardless of the citizens will.</I><BR/><BR/>Again, <I>you're not paying attention!</I> Stop going all Tancredo and equating Muslims with al Qaeda. What, do you get all your information from Little Green Footballs or something?James F. Elliotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16747033407956667363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-1134761093797121592005-12-16T14:24:00.000-05:002005-12-16T14:24:00.000-05:00Actually, Keith and James, I wrote that the "withd...Actually, Keith and James, I wrote that the "withdrawal" crowd had a principled position. It is those who hamstring and undermine without a substantive alternative for whom I reserve my disdain.<BR/><BR/>Still, let them keep throwing their flags and blowing their whistles. It's the American Way. We shall continue to protect them from the hyenas regardless.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-1134756650030092922005-12-16T13:10:00.000-05:002005-12-16T13:10:00.000-05:00Further, the CNN piece Tom links to is a gross dis...Further, the CNN piece Tom links to is a gross distortion. The resolution being voted on was proposed by Republicans and was a gross misrepresentation of Murtha's views in an attempt to make critics "put up or shut up." Murtha never advocated immediate withdrawal, but a restructuring of military deployment to improve troop security within Iraq with an eye towards a pullout to begin in six months.<BR/><BR/>So, using a defeated Republican resolution to try and tar the Democrats? That's low, even for rank partisanship.<BR/><BR/>Keith:<BR/><BR/>This statement, "It is as if they think, minus US troops, all would be peace and harmony in Iraq" either indicates that you are a liar or do not actually read and/or understand liberal opinions before passing judgment on them. Which is it?James F. Elliotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16747033407956667363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-1134753444020067942005-12-16T12:17:00.000-05:002005-12-16T12:17:00.000-05:00The problem with pieces like Tom's and your commen...The problem with pieces like Tom's and your comment above, Keith, is that they lump all criticism into the "withdrawal" category as if it was a zero-sum equation, "Either you're with us or against us." That just ain't so. They also pretend that the withdrawal crowd is somehow lacking in a moral and logical foundation for what they advocate. In fact, the logical foundation for departure can easily trump that of staying. <BR/><BR/>I personally happen to agree with staying for what I recognize as a profoundly moral reason. But I'm not about to let the Right (or the Left) get away with shoddy reasoning, which is what leads to so many of the -for lack of a better term- debates here.<BR/><BR/>What's sad is that, in a large way, the vociferously loud withdrawal crowd is embracing isolationism and paints the whole Left with the same brush in the eyes of the Right. The beauty of the Left is its diversity of opinion (something that some on the Left are trying to quash in a very wrongheaded fashion).James F. Elliotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16747033407956667363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-1134752153394688542005-12-16T11:55:00.000-05:002005-12-16T11:55:00.000-05:00Tom, sometimes I don't know why I bother with you....Tom, sometimes I don't know why I bother with you. Occasionally, you show promise as a real thinker, but times like this, you sink to gutter Republicanism.James F. Elliotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16747033407956667363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-1134748638362259542005-12-16T10:57:00.000-05:002005-12-16T10:57:00.000-05:00Tom, this is an admirable and fair-minded analysis...Tom, this is an admirable and fair-minded analysis. Thanks for posting it.S. T. Karnickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05971214612730402709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-1134738075536514532005-12-16T08:01:00.000-05:002005-12-16T08:01:00.000-05:00Tom, I'm convinced the Democrat opposition to the ...Tom, I'm convinced the Democrat opposition to the war in Iraq proceeds thusly:<BR/><BR/>1. They tried supporting it and the Patriot Act, etc.<BR/><BR/>2. They got hammered in the 2002 elections.<BR/><BR/>3. They thought, hmmmm, this could be part of an FDR style realignment that everybody's been talking about for years.<BR/><BR/>4. Political consultants said, "You've gotta distinguish yourselves from your competitor." You can't compete with the GOP on defense, so start playing the Vietnam card and buid fatigue."<BR/><BR/>5. The Dems started taking the anti-Iraq position. Gingerly, at first. Howard Dean showed them the way. <BR/><BR/>6. After you say something enough times, "Bush lied," you start to believe it. Remember Pascal: Act as though you have faith and eventually, you will. Some of them are now true believers in the Bush lied thesis even though they didn't believe it to begin with.Hunter Bakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14961831404331998743noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-1134722145628668012005-12-16T03:35:00.000-05:002005-12-16T03:35:00.000-05:00oh.. The self-fulfilling prophecy!It was quite a g...oh.. The self-fulfilling prophecy!<BR/><BR/>It was quite a good read, very humourous.Devanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08039407801743458960noreply@blogger.com