tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post113035687811709039..comments2024-03-06T03:15:58.539-05:00Comments on <b>THE NEW REFORM CLUB</b>: Geese, Ganders, &c.Hunter Bakerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14961831404331998743noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-1130767763501307812005-10-31T09:09:00.000-05:002005-10-31T09:09:00.000-05:00But giving money to fund the education of private ...But giving money to fund the education of private school children doesn't take money away from public schools, it only adds to the general tax burden because it makes all of us live up to our commitment to fund education for every child.<BR/><BR/>Of course, if you assume that people will leave the public schools in droves because of the newfound affordability of the private alternative, that would be different...but then, what would that tell you about the current system?Matt Huismanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09972662349345412127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-1130513183379451742005-10-28T11:26:00.000-04:002005-10-28T11:26:00.000-04:00You from Oregon?Not from, but I live in Oregon.For...<I>You from Oregon?</I><BR/><BR/>Not from, but I live in Oregon.<BR/><BR/>For the other side of the voucher debate (ie, the side that I am on) you really ought to study what the Milton and Rose Friedman Foundation has on their website. There is a link to it above.<BR/><BR/>I apologize if I was a bit testy in my rant above ...Barry Vanhoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04006891046091646808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-1130470944583604782005-10-27T23:42:00.000-04:002005-10-27T23:42:00.000-04:00I guess we are failing to communicate here. Educat...<I>I guess we are failing to communicate here. Education is a public good, available to all. It's it's availabiity that benefits society as a whole. It's not a benefit to the individual children.</I><BR/><BR/>We're communicating fine. CLA and I just think you've been taken in by a semantic trap. We are taxed with the understanding that the state will provide for the <I>education</I> of all children, not for buildings, etc. That is why most school funding is based on a per pupil basis. It doesn't matter where I live, the money follows my children.<BR/><BR/>The concept is similar to a health insurance plan...I have in-network doctors to choose from, but if I go out-of-network, I'm still covered, just at a reduced rate.<BR/><BR/>I live in the Chicagoland area, which is home to an extremely large number of private schools (mostly Catholic). If these schools were to close tomorrow, the entire public school system would literally shut down (this comes from the former head of the CPS, Paul Vallas) and the taxpayers of the state would HAVE to come up with more money. All that private schools do is keep the true cost of the state's mandate artificially low.<BR/><BR/>(Personally, I've always thought it would be fun if the private schools just took a month off twice a year. I think you'd see a voucher proposal immediately.)Matt Huismanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09972662349345412127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-1130450180285467862005-10-27T17:56:00.000-04:002005-10-27T17:56:00.000-04:00We're so far behind the rest of the civilized worl...<I>We're so far behind the rest of the civilized world in education today and taking resources away from public education is only going to further the gap.</I><BR/><BR/>Why can't a child take his "share" of public funding and apply it to an educational facility of his choosing?<BR/><BR/>In Oregon the cost per pupil in the public school system is about $8500 per year. The school I send my son to charges $3200 per year (it is subsidized as well).<BR/><BR/>The government run public school system is a monopoly, and as it follows with most other monopolies, efficiency goes down, quality goes down etc. because of the lack of competition.<BR/><BR/>Further, the "siphoning of money away from the public school system" is a load of hooey.<BR/><BR/>Are you suggesting that all home-schooled kids be forced into public education? By NOT going to public schools, those students are depriving the schools of money.<BR/><BR/>Lets see, my home-schooled daughter is siphoning $8500 away from public school; my son in private school is siphoning an additional $8500.<BR/><BR/>Heck, I oughta send them to public school, then the schools would have $17,000 more money!<BR/><BR/>(ps ... I am using sarcasm to get my point across, but the facts are right on the <I>money</I>).Barry Vanhoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04006891046091646808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-1130438271607882972005-10-27T14:37:00.000-04:002005-10-27T14:37:00.000-04:00A private school teacher need not be credentialed ...<I>A private school teacher need not be credentialed or even fully educated.</I><BR/><BR/>That may be true, but if 1 in 10 failed flunked a basic skills test like those <A HREF="http://www.suntimes.com/special_sections/failing_teacher/" REL="nofollow">here</A>, who would be in a better position to correct the situation?<BR/><BR/><I>I was a unionized special education teacher for two years. I made $36,000 a year. Special ed teachers are better paid than regular ed. For the amount of work a teacher puts in to their day, if they're getting paid less than I was AND the regular ed teachers, I feel very, very sorry for them.</I><BR/><BR/>The average teacher salary in the Chicago Public Schools is $55,558 for a job where you work 9 months a year. Whether that's a fair amount for the job, I don't know...but I'm not going lose too much sleep here. (Note: My wife was a public school teacher.)<BR/><BR/><I>This is a suggestion to take billions of tax dollars from programs that are illegal (they break signed treaties) and/or completely ineffective (SDI might as well be throwing silly putty).</I><BR/><BR/>The ABM treaty no longer exists, so we're not violating anything. SDI may or may not be ineffective, but isn't it funny how the rest of the world always gets so paranoid that we're pursuing it? It's our money, why do they get so bent out of shape about it?<BR/><BR/>But getting back to my original point, if education needs more funding, make the arguement and Americans will pay up. The arguement that so and so is throwing away money over there, so you might as well throw it away over here isn't a good one. I'd rather just have my money back.Matt Huismanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09972662349345412127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-1130435854226384042005-10-27T13:57:00.000-04:002005-10-27T13:57:00.000-04:00Who cares? "Credentials" is simply an obstacle put...<I>Who cares? "Credentials" is simply an obstacle put in place by unions so they can keep a monopoly on teachers.</I><BR/><BR/>Credentials are state and federal requirements, and handed out by universities.<BR/><BR/><I>When you say "fully educated", do you mean with any college degree, or do you mean with a degree in education?</I><BR/><BR/>Both. The former is especially true of private schools, including the secular one I went to for several years.<BR/><BR/><I>Not to deflect here, but what exactly is illegal about these programs?</I><BR/><BR/>Not to be rude, but please don't be obtuse. Signed treaties, such as ABM (SDI is relavent here) and Non-Proliferation (ditto "bunker-buster"), are U.S. law once ratified and require an Act of Congress to withdraw from. The said programs are in violation of these treaties, therefore are illegal.<BR/><BR/><I>What I basically see from most posters here on the issue of the failure of public education is that their solution is to continue to throw more money down the black hole of the failed system instead of reforming the system itself...</I><BR/><BR/>Again, not to be rude, but I think you're only half-comprehending what the posters are writing. I believe all of us have conceded that money is only <I>part</I> of the problem, but it is a <I>huge</I> deal. When kids are crowded 30 or 40 to a classroom, when textbooks are 20 years out of date, and when they are denied exposure to arts and music because of budget cuts, that's a problem. <BR/><BR/>In my work, the one thing that becomes glaringly clear is that across economic and ideological lines parents demand the teachers and the state to be solely accountable for their children's education. Parental involvement in education is key. It's the one thing magnet and charter schools get right.James F. Elliotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16747033407956667363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-1130430804802017982005-10-27T12:33:00.000-04:002005-10-27T12:33:00.000-04:00A private school teacher need not be credentialed ...<I>A private school teacher need not be credentialed or even fully educated.</I><BR/><BR/>Who cares? "Credentials" is simply an obstacle put in place by unions so they can keep a monopoly on teachers.<BR/><BR/>When you say "fully educated", do you mean with any college degree, or do you mean with a degree in education?Barry Vanhoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04006891046091646808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-1130430271483146502005-10-27T12:24:00.000-04:002005-10-27T12:24:00.000-04:00The "progressive" Sweden sure likes vouchers, and ...The "progressive" Sweden sure likes vouchers, and private funding of education.<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.friedmanfoundation.org/news/2003-01-06.html" REL="nofollow"> Look here</A> ... ain't Sweden what many liberals aspire to be?<BR/><BR/>Education is clearly an example where the liberals in the country are anything but the self-proclaimed "progressive."<BR/><BR/>If you're headin' down the wrong path, forging further ahead is not progressive. Maybe y'all ought to consider turning back on this one?Barry Vanhoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04006891046091646808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-1130428443685541762005-10-27T11:54:00.000-04:002005-10-27T11:54:00.000-04:00Part of the reason private is best is exactly beca...<I>Part of the reason private is best is exactly because it is private. </I><BR/><BR/>Part of the problem with private schools (my mother was a private school chemistry teacher for several years before moving on to special education), is that they are not required to be accountable to standards of education or employment. A private school teacher need not be credentialed or even fully educated.<BR/><BR/><I>He could hire dedicated teachers who demanded salaries less than what unionized teachers at public schools required.</I><BR/><BR/>I was a unionized special education teacher for two years. I made $36,000 a year. Special ed teachers are better paid than regular ed. For the amount of work a teacher puts in to their day, if they're getting paid less than I was AND the regular ed teachers, I feel very, very sorry for them.<BR/><BR/><I>This arguement is complete garbage...by this logic, any failure in education can be explained by any other budget item sucking away limited resources.</I><BR/><BR/>With this amount of money, NCLB could go from unfunded mandate to funded law. With this amount of money, teachers could be paid a professional wage, boosting teacher retention (studies show the more experienced a teacher is (barring burnout), the better the quality of their instruction). With this amount of money, more schools could be constructed, lowering class sizes (which are a HUGE detriment to learning). With this amount of money, school districts would not have to choose between firing teachers and cutting music and arts programs (programs that are proven to aid in children's development). <BR/><BR/>Funding is just one aspect of the problem, but it <I>is</I> an aspect. This is not some magically growing tax dollar suggestion. This is a suggestion to take billions of tax dollars from programs that are illegal (they break signed treaties) and/or completely ineffective (SDI might as well be throwing silly putty). In business, programs with no return on investment or no net profit are shut down and their resource streams funneled to programs with good returns. Education is a proven good investment with good returns.James F. Elliotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16747033407956667363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-1130426625687761602005-10-27T11:23:00.000-04:002005-10-27T11:23:00.000-04:00Vouchers are not the answer.The same could be said...<I>Vouchers are not the answer.</I><BR/><BR/>The same could be said about more money for education. Sometimes I wonder how much more money is needed to 'get things right'...its probably always just a little bit more.<BR/><BR/><I>Imagine the amount of money the schools would get if we axed the illegal and ineffective Missile Defense "Shield" or the illegal "bunker buster" projects. BILLIONS of dollars.</I><BR/><BR/>Give me a break. This arguement is complete garbage...by this logic, any failure in education can be explained by any other budget item sucking away limited resources. There is no magic 'right' number of tax dollars that politicians get to carve up...they make the case for what should be done and how much it will cost, and we agree or disagree to do it.Matt Huismanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09972662349345412127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-1130424082612422792005-10-27T10:41:00.000-04:002005-10-27T10:41:00.000-04:00Private isn't best because it's private. It's best...<I>Private isn't best because it's private. It's best because it's better funded, in most cases, excepting rich areas with good property tax bases.</I><BR/><BR/>I think we have to get past this notion that all private schools are all $20,000+/yr tuition institutions. They're not. Most of them spend a lot less than your typical inner-city public school per student. (Note: I haven't said here that public schools waste money...I've only made the point that most private schools are not extravagant.)<BR/><BR/><I>If they don't do more than simply refund money to people who are already going to private school, then it's just a tax break for the rich.</I><BR/><BR/>Same type of misconception, going to private school doesn't mean you're rich.<BR/><BR/>And by the way, by what logic is it reasonable to take someone's money to pay for their children's education and then not pay for their education?Matt Huismanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09972662349345412127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-1130388411773523622005-10-27T00:46:00.000-04:002005-10-27T00:46:00.000-04:00"However, I do agree that we need to increase fund...<I>"However, I do agree that we need to increase funding for public education."</I> <BR/><BR/>Who could disagree with that? ;-}Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-1130377461441083692005-10-26T21:44:00.000-04:002005-10-26T21:44:00.000-04:00Vouchers are not the answer. Vouchers are complete...Vouchers are not the answer. Vouchers are completely ineffective for people who can't already afford private school. A better answer is to refund/credit the amount of an individual's tax dollars that would go to public education if their child goes to private school and to increase funding for public education. Imagine the amount of money the schools would get if we axed the illegal and ineffective Missile Defense "Shield" or the illegal "bunker buster" projects. BILLIONS of dollars.James F. Elliotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16747033407956667363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-1130377053948960972005-10-26T21:37:00.000-04:002005-10-26T21:37:00.000-04:00The elephant in the room is the partisan divide ov...The elephant in the room is the partisan divide over vouchers.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-1130359795213439222005-10-26T16:49:00.000-04:002005-10-26T16:49:00.000-04:00How can you agree with me and still sound so dispu...How can you agree with me and still sound so disputatious, LA?<BR/><BR/>We shall follow Ms. Tsing Loh's pilgrim's progress. She hints in the first article that this may just be a one-year thing. We shall see what happens should she find herself in possession of a large wad of cash.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-1130357081039246692005-10-26T16:04:00.000-04:002005-10-26T16:04:00.000-04:00Sandra Tsing-Low rocks.I can't help, I just like h...Sandra Tsing-Low rocks.<BR/><BR/>I can't help, I just like her.<BR/><BR/>By the way, I don't think my comment here fits the comments policy of this blog, does it?Pastoriushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03169561459129778670noreply@blogger.com