tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post113160261930277182..comments2024-03-06T03:15:58.539-05:00Comments on <b>THE NEW REFORM CLUB</b>: Those Lazy, Crazy, Hazy Days of The Cindy Sheehan SummerHunter Bakerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14961831404331998743noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-1131836179846216782005-11-12T17:56:00.000-05:002005-11-12T17:56:00.000-05:00I believe Shakespeare's Beatrice summed Tom's resp...I believe Shakespeare's Beatrice summed Tom's response up best in <I>Much Ado About Nothing</I>, Connie:<BR/>"You always end with a jade's trick: I know you of old."James F. Elliotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16747033407956667363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-1131823102815642802005-11-12T14:18:00.000-05:002005-11-12T14:18:00.000-05:00I like your rants better than Ariana's, Connie. P...I like your rants better than Ariana's, Connie. Please have mercy on us all and park her at the door.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-1131750381981953452005-11-11T18:06:00.000-05:002005-11-11T18:06:00.000-05:00Thank you James.I agree with most of what you have...Thank you James.<BR/><BR/>I agree with most of what you have to say. I do have a problem, however, with the <I>ex post facto</I> application of the immoral label.Barry Vanhoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04006891046091646808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-1131739500505752722005-11-11T15:05:00.000-05:002005-11-11T15:05:00.000-05:00But the subject of the original essay was protest,...But the subject of the original essay was protest, Connie, and now that even Wes Clark pronounces we should stay the course, the role of protest. <BR/><BR/>As for the rest, I can't see doing an autopsy when the patient isn't even dead yet.<BR/><BR/>(And yes, I know accusations of moral certainty make a liberal's head explode. Anything but that! But can protest do harm? As noted, a thought too scary to consider.)Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-1131732572802825562005-11-11T13:09:00.000-05:002005-11-11T13:09:00.000-05:00"You want to defend an immoral war, at least use s...<I>"You want to defend an immoral war, at least use some logic."<BR/><BR/>Why do you call the war immoral?</I><BR/><BR/>I think this is a fundamental divide between pro-war and anti-war ideologies. Peter Daou addresses it <A HREF="http://daoureport.salon.com/synopsis.aspx?synopsisId=8d187cda-6e7c-46bc-af30-fcb819c848a1" REL="nofollow">here</A>. You may need to watch an ad or fill out a Salon day pass if you're interested in reading it.<BR/><BR/>But I will sum up. The anti-war movement is essentially composed of two elements: There are the pacifists, who are opposed to all war, and the "anti-this-war" opposition. Daou's point, which largely mirrors my opinions on the Right's arguments for this war, addresses this second group very well.<BR/><BR/>Essentially, the argument is this: War is such a brutal, destructive, and dangerous prospect for our soldiers, our opponents, and the civilians in the crossfire, that our leaders (and I refer to both sides of the aisle here) and the people who support them have a moral obligation to enter it with honesty of both purpose and intentions. The fact is, emerging and long-emerged information strongly bolsters the opinion that we were misled, that the war was perpetrated ineptly for spurious reasons and that the mendacity of the war's architects has led to countless deaths.<BR/><BR/>This is a moral failing. All the good results in the world after the fact are unintended if the very purpose of the war was flawed or, worse, an outright lie. No amount of freedom in Iraq justifies or excuses ineptitude, placing politics over prowess, and failure to be truthful.<BR/><BR/>So, yes, pulling out of Iraq now would be a moral failure eclipsing the war itself. But that does not mean we should fail to hold our leaders accountable for their immoral decisions.James F. Elliotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16747033407956667363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-1131727070359298012005-11-11T11:37:00.000-05:002005-11-11T11:37:00.000-05:00You want to defend an immoral war, at least use so...<I>You want to defend an immoral war, at least use some logic.</I><BR/><BR/>Why do you call the war immoral?Barry Vanhoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04006891046091646808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-1131697590183006102005-11-11T03:26:00.000-05:002005-11-11T03:26:00.000-05:00That protests might make things worse is a thought...That protests might make things worse is a thought so scary that protesters dare not entertain it, so they don't.<BR/><BR/>I envy their moral certainty that they are doing good. I myself have never experienced it.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-1131680064989803122005-11-10T22:34:00.000-05:002005-11-10T22:34:00.000-05:00And yes, James, I hear you. I find the raised voi...And yes, James, I hear you. I find the raised voice of a self-righteous progressive more pleasing than a self-righteous reactionary.<BR/><BR/>At least there's a chance I might hear something new. Rock on, mate. :-)Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-1131679101599847482005-11-10T22:18:00.000-05:002005-11-10T22:18:00.000-05:00I accept the tears for the victims of the war as s...I accept the tears for the victims of the war as sincere, but their deaths are at least in the hope of a better future for the Iraqi people and for the world as a whole.<BR/><BR/>Saddam's victims, the victims of the American-led sanctions, and the continuing victims of the Islamist and Ba'athist terrorists are far more numerous, and deserve our deepest concern because they were and are innocents, and because their suffering was useless, in the cause of nothing.<BR/><BR/>(Protest [or its peacetime equivalent, progress] is necessary and desirable. As long as one understands the nature of what already is. Babies should not be thrown out with bathwater, and the world should not start anew with every morning's newspaper. For one thing, it becomes tiresome questioning every day if there should even be a morning newspaper. There should.)Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-1131659232521289162005-11-10T16:47:00.000-05:002005-11-10T16:47:00.000-05:00Man, don't get me started on Cindy Sheehan. Someti...Man, don't get me started on Cindy Sheehan. Sometimes I just don't think I'm tolerant of other people enough to be a good liberal. Fortunately, I like the sound of my voice too much to believe it.James F. Elliotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16747033407956667363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-1131655306347898662005-11-10T15:41:00.000-05:002005-11-10T15:41:00.000-05:00Why, thanks, James. Your complimentary "Cindy She...Why, thanks, James. Your complimentary "Cindy Sheehan Summer" T-shirt is on its way.Tom Van Dykehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121072404143877596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8776899.post-1131642621597831122005-11-10T12:10:00.000-05:002005-11-10T12:10:00.000-05:00I've always felt that Clark's criticisms mirrored ...I've always felt that Clark's criticisms mirrored my own - that is, largely procedural rather than political. I really don't have a problem with deposing Saddam Hussein, and I've always maintained that if Bush had just said, "We're going in there because Saddam's a giant douche and deserves to be destroyed," I'd have been cheering him on. I'll probably have more on the subject later, but I'm trying to respect your wishes.James F. Elliotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16747033407956667363noreply@blogger.com